Therapy Meets Strategy: Coaches and Therapists, Same Team

Meet the team: neurodivergent coaches supporting neurodivergent adults

Danielle: Hello there. I’m Danielle Ralston. I am the founder and head coach here at ND OutLoud. What is ND OutLoud? ND OutLoud is a team of neurodivergent coaches. We are neurodivergent, every single one of us. TBI, PTSD, ADHD, autism, bipolar disorder, all of the things. We also have a passion for supporting others like us, so you don’t have to struggle like we did in our past. We have all taken trainings and certifications so that we can support you in living a better life and upgrading all of the things that are frustrating about your life.

What is this session going to give you? Actionable tips. Yes, we’re going to talk about our programs and what we offer, but I want you to walk away with something actionable for whatever is overwhelming, frustrating, or just plain annoying you right now in your life. And if you’re a parent or a spouse of someone with neurodivergence, something to help them as well. I want you to walk away with something today.

Why some therapists refuse to work with coaches

Danielle: Good morning. I hope you’re having an awesome day. This is Danielle and Tara, talking as therapist and coach. Tara is our therapist on the team, licensed in Virginia and Florida and working on licensing in all of the places.

Tara: Yes.

Danielle: I am an ADHD-CCSP certified coach, and we are talking about why therapists need to collaborate more with coaches. This is something that I, as a coach, run into a lot. I will have therapists refuse to collaborate with me even though their client wants me to. I’ve had therapists refuse to work with a coach because “you don’t know anything, you aren’t a professional, and you can’t help.” I’ve been called some pretty nasty names, like “I’m an idiot.” Instead of looking at a coach as somebody to fully support their client in ways that they can.

And our model is a bit different than a normal one-on-one coach. We do one-on-one coaching, but we offer daily, consistent, all-day-long support, when a therapist can’t do that. And I don’t think a therapist wants to do that either, because I can’t imagine the burnout. As a coach, the only reason we can do that is we have a whole team, because I as one coach could also not offer that level of support. But what have you seen from your side, as far as therapists working with coaches?

The disconnect from the therapist side: credentials are just letters

Tara: That’s a loaded question. It’s unfortunate that there seems to be such a disconnect between coaches and therapists. I really saw the disconnect from the therapist side when I went to a national ADHD conference last year and saw so many LCSWs and LPCs making comments like, why is this presentation run by a coach? Why are there so many coaches here? And it’s like, we can all coexist in the same space. Just because somebody is a coach and not an LPC or LCSW doesn’t make them less than. The letters after our names, yes, they’re credentials, but at the end of the day, they’re letters. They don’t quantify what you know or how you’re able to interact with people.

I just think that if there was more collaboration, it would be so much better, a well-oiled machine, which it isn’t right now, because there is such a disconnect. What I’ve gathered on the therapist side is that so many people feel like coaches are stepping into a lane they’re not supposed to be in. That is not true. However, just like on the therapist side, there are coaches who cross the line when they shouldn’t, who are trying to do EMDR and talk about trauma and things that a coach should not be touching. That is for the clinical therapist side of things. But both can coexist, and both need to and should.

Where coaches should never cross the line

Danielle: I’m going to try not to get on my soapbox. We have a very short amount of time today, so I will not get on my soapbox. Coaches don’t belong crossing lines. Coaches are not here to treat people. We are not here to treat trauma. We shouldn’t even be talking about trauma other than how trauma affects daily life. Like, you have this trauma and you hear somebody else’s voice in your head instead of being able to take action, and it affects your executive function. That is the only place a coach should be touching trauma.

Coaches should not be doing CBT, DBT, REBT, or NLP, which is a huge thing in the coaching world, training coaches in neurolinguistic programming. We should not be touching that. And this is coming from somebody who has a degree and could be a therapist if I chose to be licensed and do my clinical work, which I refuse to do, because I’m ADHD and I don’t like rules. I’m very open about that. I could be doing what Tara does if I wanted to follow the rules, and I don’t like to follow rules. So I like coaching. That’s an amazing thing about coaching. But it’s also to the detriment of clients, because coaches should not be treating mental health issues.

I understand, from a therapist’s standpoint, why they’re very hesitant to work with a lot of coaches. But that’s also why we have people like Dr. Jessica and Tara on the team, and we check in with each other as coaches to make sure we aren’t crossing those lines. I know it’s really hard as a coach to not step in and want to help. Especially if you’re neurodivergent, we just want to help. But it’s super important that we aren’t crossing those lines, because we are damaging potential collaborations and relationships when we do.

Tara: And causing harm to the client you’re working with. It goes to what I always talk about with a lot of my clients, intention versus impact. You can have the best intentions, but the impact can be harmful.

Accreditation, regulation, and the coaching industry cash cow

Tara: At that conference, there was a table where a university was doing a survey on coaches, and I asked them why. They said, “Well, we have a lot of concern that there’s no accrediting body, no regulation.” And that’s also kind of the point of coaching. Yes, there needs to be some sort of regulation, because I have met really bad coaches, in the same way that I’ve also met really bad therapists. It exists in every single field. You’re not going to get rid of that.

Danielle: Absolutely not. And what concerns me about accreditation is that currently, accreditation in the coaching industry is the new MLM. It’s coaches coaching coaches coaching coaches, and charging exorbitant amounts of money for it. I also think colleges charging what they charge is absolutely ridiculous, and don’t get me started on that. But the coaching industry has just become a cash cow, off of people who genuinely want to change and help.

What real therapist and coach collaboration looks like

Danielle: We’re going to put that aside. How can therapists and coaches collaborate together? I love what you and I get to do, and this is why we wanted to have this conversation. I have a couple of other therapists I collaborate with who are not part of our team, because they have huge practices. They refer clients to me constantly, and we fill out the forms that allow me as a coach to talk to their therapist, and their therapist to talk to me, so that we make sure we’re supporting each other and not crossing lines with one another.

Tara: Right. Having the collaboration of, hey, this is what I’m working on with this client. If this shows up, or if this client starts changing behaviors, encourage them. If you start seeing more anxiety come out because we’re addressing trauma, and you see it in their executive functioning, let me know. Things like that can be so helpful to the client, and much needed. We’re on an uphill battle here, and as neurodivergent providers working with neurodivergent clients, we really need to come together rather than be on two opposite ends. That’s not helpful for anybody, and the person who’s really losing is the client.

Coaches mentoring therapists on neurodivergence

Danielle: And this is where a coach can help a therapist. I have, I think, nine therapists that I work with as a mentor coach. What does that mean? They’re coming to me saying, hey, I have a client, I need support, because I don’t fully understand neurodivergence. There isn’t enough training about this. Can you help me? I have nine therapists who come to me and ask those questions because they trust me. We’ve worked together. One of them, I worked with her son, and now she comes to me for her practice. And that’s actually where Tara and I connected, she was coming to me to help fill in gaps she didn’t have in her training.

Coaches and therapists can support each other in a fantastic way. There are things I will go to Jessica about, and go to Tara about. I’ve said to therapists, “Hey, I’ve got this client, and this is the wall I’m hitting with them. I don’t want to cross this line, because that is into therapy, but they need coaching around this area. Can we work together on this? Can you help me create a plan so that you’re doing this with them and I’m doing this with them?” In the last year, I have two clients with awesome therapist-coach relationships, and both of those clients no longer need one-on-one coaching or one-on-one therapy, because that relationship helped them grow beyond it.

Working yourself out of a job: the goal both professions forget

Danielle: I think that’s something therapists and coaches forget: we’re supposed to be working ourselves out of a job.

Tara: Yeah. But it gets lost in the mix, and it’s really unfortunate.

Danielle: It’s so sad to me, and I see this on both sides, that therapists as business owners and coaches as business owners are so worried about losing that income that they lose the purpose of the job. I want my clients to get to the point where they stop working with me. I have a $19.99 a month program specifically for clients who don’t need one-on-one coaching but need continued support and an action-taking space. I built that in. Honestly, I will tell 90 percent of clients that if you’ve been working with a therapist or a coach for a while, just go to the group program, because you don’t need one-on-one. One-on-one should be a very temporary thing. Do we all need coaching and support at times? Yeah. But in a group program you can get that at a very low cost. Do you need a therapist all the time if you have a lot of trauma?

Tara: It could take years. I mean, honestly, as somebody who’s been in therapy for a very long time.

Danielle: Same.

Tara: It can take 10 years. But the job of a therapist is still to be working themselves out of a job. One hundred percent. I always mention that to my clients in the very beginning: my goal is for you to not be here anymore, to not feel like you need to come see me anymore. Do I have clients I’ve been working with long term? Yes. Is it because there’s a lot of trauma? Yes. Is it also because they’re neurodivergent and need that consistency, even if it’s just once a month to tell me how life is going, so that if something goes wrong they have that connection continuing? Yes. But no, it should not be a forever thing on a weekly basis. I think that just fosters codependency, and that’s not what we want from either service.

Building better tools for therapists: a neurodivergent feelings wheel

Danielle: Absolutely. So we have some cool things coming. We’re actually going to start creating some content specifically for therapists. Tara is taking on creating a better neurodivergent feelings wheel, because I will tell you, the feelings wheel that exists, and this was a major discussion at our last team meeting, does not work for those of us who are on the autism spectrum. If you have alexithymia, the feelings wheel means zero. So how do we make this better for therapists to use in their practice? Because I’ve talked to so many therapists who say, “The feelings wheel, I cannot get my client to understand this.” We’re going to be creating other neurodivergent-centered trainings, workbooks, templates, protocols, things like that for therapists.

And Tara is also creating things for the coaches on our team, the therapist backup that coaching needs. It is so important for this relationship to be strong. Not because I’m looking to make money off therapists, but because we need to find a better way to collaborate with one another.

If you are a therapist and you’re thinking, “Geez, I wish I could find a coach I could trust,” reach out to us. We have six coaches. We all have other degrees beyond coaching in this area, to work in mental health and to work with neurodivergence. We are unique in that aspect, because I don’t believe coaching certifications are enough. Do I have a coaching certification program? Yes, because coaching certifications aren’t enough, and there is very little training out there for autism at this point. That is something we want to change, because so many of those with ADHD have autism as well. We want to change the messaging. We want to change the support that’s out there for our clients, because that’s the goal: supporting our clients better.

If you are a therapist and have questions, reach out to Tara or me. If you are a coach who wants more support and wants to connect with therapists so you can create better support for your clients, reach out to us. Even if Tara is not operating in a state you need her in, we will find you a therapist who is neurodivergent friendly, because unfortunately there are more people who put neurodivergence and ADHD on their websites than are actually qualified to do so. Let us know, and we will help you make those connections and find the right collaborations for your practice, whether it’s coaching or therapy. Have an amazing day, everyone. If you have any questions, please let us know.